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capitalism an alternative model

Posted Over 11 Years ago by Temerit

Often when myself or others bring up issues with capitalism, we are asked to present an alternative system. I'm not sure if a superior system exists, at least not any one that closely resembles anything we've seen in human history. I have however come up with a potential alternative model that could operate within the capitalistic paradigm.

I would like to present a basic outline of this idea, which I'll admit is very superficial and non detailed in any way shape or form. I wanted to get other people's thoughts on it. Keep in mind, this is still capitalism, simply an alternative approach.

I'll preface it with saying that I understand that the implementation of this model would require a massive re-working of the current tax code, which encourages the dominance of markets by big businesses and corporations (a code which both sides are guilty of creating). It would also require a more equal society in which the middle class has a reasonable amount of movable capital (in the form of disposable income).

It's pretty simple. Instead of the current investing class that we have today, the plutocrats, the job creators, or whatever you might like to call them, we would simply have an extremely large middle class that would extend almost all the way up to the top of the income spectrum. There would of course be a reasonable level of inequality: incentive to come up with new ideas, to provide a valuable service or product to society, and to take risks that could benefit us all. However, under this system, there wouldn't be near as much capital hoarded into the upper class.

The way it would work is that the middle class would would replace the investing class by offering up venture capital for budding entrepreneurs and existing businesses wishing to expand into new markets. With the rise of the internet we have seen sites like indiegogo and kickstarter form as a means for people to donate to causes and ideas that they like. We have seen reedit raise several hundred thousand dollars in a matter of hours for a bus monitor that was verbally abused by several students. Why not harness this potential? If someone has a business idea, they can post it on a site and people could invest in the ideas that they found interesting, much in the way people start businesses on indiegogo and kickstarter. Out of necessity there would be a system of accountability for the entrepreneurs, and there would also be a system set up so that investors could make a decent return on their investment if the business idea works well (in the form of stock or otherwise).

Another component to this overhaul of capitalism would be an idea much like something I posted several days ago that I discussed a bit with PPFB. The link (which I highly recommend reading) describes a business model that exists in one of the top 10 businesses in Spain in which the employees of the corporation own stake in the company and they elect the board of directors through a democratic process. There are also several other differences in this business model from the one we typically see under our capitalist system.

The Article: http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/9968-there-is-an-alternative-to-capitalism-spanish-city-mondragon-shows-the-way

The potential social benefits of subverting a future dominated entirely by corporations are incredibly huge. I'm convinced that our ability to develop a healthy thriving society depends on developing an alternative to the corporate dominated system we find ourselves currently in (and growing ever worse). In addition to some of these changes, I would also advocate getting rid of patents and copyrights (forms of intellectual monopoly) which I think are largely responsible for the formation of big business and which generate a wide range of social ills.

What are your thoughts?

---

On a personal note:

To set the record straight, I do believe in the power of competition and the power of the free market. I also however believe that there are some things that should operate only under the federal government, namely prisons, and I also believe there are certain services that should be guaranteed for everyone by the federal government, but where private alternatives should exist too, namely healthcare and education.

There are 53 Replies


guaranteed for everyone by the federal government

Why do you want the federal government to have all this power? Seems like blind trust. Do you just think it is some fair regulator? History shows that has never been the case.

incentive to come up with new ideas

What is the incentive?

risks that could benefit us all

Why would they take risks if so much of their capital has to go to all these social programs you want? Not a lot of money to play around with.

getting rid of patents and copyrights

So people can steal and make money off of other peoples ideas? What is the incentive for people to come forward with ideas?

I too want the corporations out of control, but I'd rather put my trust in the free market then big government. This would be trading corporate tyrants for big government tyrants.

Your class warfare aside, one thing I do find interesting is the investing in business ideas through the people rather than through the banks. I'd have to study more about it, but I like that it isn't going to a bank for a loan. I wonder if this would cut too much into the banks profits though, obviously the banks are making ridiculous profits today, but they do need some to maintain themselves.

Over 11 Years ago
#85

"What is the incentive?"

That you make a lot more money than if you aren't someone coming up with big ideas.

"I wonder if this would cut too much into the banks profits though, obviously the banks are making ridiculous profits today, but they do need some to maintain themselves."

Credit Unions homie!

---

Alright, I just read through the rest of your stuff and I'm not going to respond here. I just really want this to be a discussion of the main idea I'm putting forward, not the same old arguments we always have about the role of government. I can address those in a different thread.

Over 11 Years ago
Temerit

Unions as in violent thugs with government backing? there is only one type of captalism and we're not even using it right no so stop trying to balme a system taht isn't even in efffect.

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

Unions as in violent thugs with government backing? there is only one type of captalism and we're not even using it right no so stop trying to balme a system taht isn't even in efffect.

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

Sorry I have no interest in even bothering to try a lassiez-faire system. The free market left alone simply does not produce socially desirable outcomes.

Over 11 Years ago
Temerit

Ther eis no other type of captialism though there's either htat, corproatism, or socialism.

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

Must be a nice black and white world you live in.

I'll just wait for responses that are actually relevant to this thread.

Over 11 Years ago
Temerit

what od you mean? I'm talking pure semantics the meaning of "captialism" is very clear as are the meanigns of socialism and corporatism. anythign that doesn't fit the exact definition is not an example of what it is claiming ot be. you can't have a "moderate" form of an ideology ebcause it does not follow to the letter the defenition of what that system or ideology is.

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

Listne i'm sorry i'm just frustrated. i'VE PRETTY MUCH GIVNE UP ON SOCIETY LATLEY AND i DIDN'T MEAN TO LASH OUT LIEK THAT.

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

Dumbass liberals



Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

Aren'tyou a leftist though TRE?

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

He follows the zionist created Bolsheviks and mass murderer Mao

Over 11 Years ago
#85

Mao is probably the biggest cause of class warfare in this day and age with his three worlds theory.

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

Aren'tyou a leftist though TRE?

Yes. I'm the only true leftist on the forum.

Anyone else on this forum who claims to be a leftist is just a liberal, which means they're pseudoleftist.

To be specific, I'm a communist. The difference between a liberal and a communist is even greater than that of a Democrat and Republican.

Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

Mao is probably the biggest cause of class warfare in this day and age with his three worlds theory.

Not to mention, his ideas probably influenced Osama bin laden.

This of course led to America's darkest day, although I see 9/11 as a favor, not an act of terror.

As you can tell, I'm all for the Third World. The west deserves whatever it gets. The time has come for arrogant people to get theirs.

Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

that's because ther eis no dfifference betwene the altter tow. and which communist doctrin do you fall in to? Maoism, Marx-Leninism, Stalinism, or Anarcho-communism (which was the original idea).

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

Stalin was great. But I'm not a fan of socialism in one country. Still, Stalin was a very competent leader.

Lately, I've become authoritarian, so I'm a big fan of Marxism-Lenism-Maoism (because it emphasizes the Third World, something dumbass liberals forget about).

Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

are you using the classical definition of liberalism or the North AMerican one?

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

The Third World is going to have the last laugh. Our consumerism isn't sustainable, and eventually we're going to collapse.

"Lately, I've become authoritarian"

I can understand that, seeing as how so many people share ideas with #85 and have no business influencing anything, but it still scares me. ):

Over 11 Years ago
poptart!
 

ugh why is it that limiteed governmetn, free markets, and individual lberty are now to be treated like horrible abominations?

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

I can understand that, seeing as how so many people share ideas with #85 and have no business influencing anything, but it still scares me. ):

I'm also an environmentalist, which is why I believe the garbage should be eradicated.

Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

"ugh why is it that limiteed governmetn, free markets, and individual lberty are now to be treated like horrible abominations?"

Don't lump individual liberty with those two "abominations."

Over 11 Years ago
poptart!
 

Stalin was great.

Even when he was siezing European territory in the balkans and the baltics?

Over 11 Years ago
#85

you can't ahve individual luiebrty without free markets and limited government. when you give government pwoer ot run the economy and steal form people and such it developes in to suppression of free speech and association as well.

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

Even when he was siezing European territory in the balkans and the baltics?

Yes.

Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

The initiation of force is never jsutified. hgow can youf idn that morally OK?

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

I dont mean to derail Temerits thread but I have one more question for TRE

Was Germany evil for seizing Czechoslovakia and Poland and France? Or were those ok, just the crimes they commited bad?

Over 11 Years ago
#85

Was Germany evil for seizing Czechoslovakia and Poland and France? Or were those ok, just the crimes they commited bad?

They did fabricate a report that Poland attacked a radio station to justify their war with them.

But if you want to get into it, yes - bring it to another thread.

Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

Three Red Eyes, I don't care if you're a troll or not, I love you and you have the most sane ideas out of anyone here E>

Over 11 Years ago
poptart!
 

Three Red Eyes, I don't care if you're a troll or not, I love you and you have the most sane ideas out of anyone here E>

Firstly, I'm not a troll.

Secondly, that's quite the compliment there. Thank you <3

Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

1) Good.
2) No problem!

Over 11 Years ago
poptart!
 

For some reason, people always think I'm a troll.

If I were a troll, I wouldn't spend so much time writing lengthy posts. Also, I'd find better sites to troll than this, because GT does a good job at censoring trolls.

Maybe people are taken aback by my radical politics, but I'm 100 % genuine here, even if some things are shocking.

Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

Well, I've noticed that when people get called out on their shitty behavior or ideas, they get angry, so it makes sense that the Nazis here would label you a troll to try to discredit you.

Over 11 Years ago
poptart!
 

Yep - I've already proven how Capitalism is so flawed. They feel threatened cause they are unable to challenge the valid points. It's kinda sad how they resort to calling others trolls, but nothing offers us a better insight into their mental weakness than name calling.

Funny how they go after me, but when someone posts things like the "Holohoax didn't happen" nobody calls them trolls. Evidently, ideological prejudice is okay here.

Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

Thoughts on this pic poptart?



Over 11 Years ago
#85

"Yep - I've already proven how Capitalism is so flawed. They feel threatened cause they are unable to challenge the valid points. It's kinda sad how they resort to calling others trolls, but nothing offers us a better insight into their mental weakness than name calling."

Yeah, that actually completely explains it. They're threatened. ):

"Funny how they go after me, but when someone posts things like the "Holohoax didn't happen" nobody calls them trolls. Evidently, ideological prejudice is okay here."

Haha I know right?

"Thoughts on this pic poptart?"

I think that war is a horrible thing, and I'm sorry for anyone who had to go through that; but I don't see the (sarcastic) connection to male privilege. I'm sure that if the patriarchy had allowed women to serve in combat situations in that time period, a huge number of women would have died that day as well. ):

Another one of my thoughts is, who the fuck designed those things to open from the front?

Over 11 Years ago
poptart!
 

-Yeah, that actually completely explains it. They're threatened. ):

It's a good thing that honest people can change their views when you talk sense to them. Take Xhin for instance. He was once a die hard Capitalist. But my anti-capitalis posts have affected him greatly - Now he's starting to get more and more shaky about Capitalism.

If the other Capitalists were genuine, they'd start to question whether it's a sound economic system or not. They cling to it like it's their religion or something. None of them ever show any critical thought when it comes to Capitalism's validity.

Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

I stick to it on princaple because its the only economic system I see that doesnt' depend on governmetn force

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

Ironnnyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Over 11 Years ago
Three Red Eyes

"It's a good thing that honest people can change their views when you talk sense to them. Take Xhin for instance. He was once a die hard Capitalist. But my anti-capitalis posts have affected him greatly - Now he's starting to get more and more shaky about Capitalism."

I don't agree with Xhin on everything, but I definitely respect him for actually considering other viewpoints instead of completely rejecting them because of some false sense of pride or ego.

"If the other Capitalists were genuine, they'd start to question whether it's a sound economic system or not. They cling to it like it's their religion or something. None of them ever show any critical thought when it comes to Capitalism's validity."

Yeah, pure capitalism is just a terrifying thought. We've come so far, but then Capitalists want to go back to the 1800s-1900s. It's like they've never even heard about the Jungle or Upton Sinclair.

Over 11 Years ago
poptart!
 

To the above post ^^

"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him." - Leo Tolstoy

Over 11 Years ago
Temerit

"War, what is it good for?"

Anyways, I like this idea. I really do. If I may tweak your idea, however - rather, outlining some practical application here, we can increase the attractive value of the method itself! Keeping the free market investment approach, we could market the process itself through televised broadcast. Here's where I'm going:

Over 11 Years ago
HAMILTON!

Yay, two posts out of over forty that actually address the OP.

Maybe I'll post this again later.

Over 11 Years ago
Temerit

we would simply have an extremely large middle class that would extend almost all the way up to the top of the income spectrum.

that already exists. it's called "Being a millionaire"

Over 11 Years ago
Kaotic

I have a question? if the middle class starts to shrink by more and more people be3comign part of the upper rather then lwoer classs then is tha ta bad thign?

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

Probably not, but that's only possible when you're having large growth in GDP (which would be considered a good thing obviously).

Over 11 Years ago
Temerit

I myself don't see a middle class as an inherently good thign to h ave in a larege quantity. it's nothing more then a means to an end

Over 11 Years ago
tnu

Okay.

Over 11 Years ago
Temerit

Temerit, your system does make a lot of sense. One of the issues with the current model of capitalism is that banks have an oligopoly on entrepreneurs, which hold any economy together. These banks are simultaneously deregulated and guarded by the government against any risk which they'll inevitably incur, which is absolutely insane.

The only flaw I see with it is that it is only one idea, and short of force, there's no way to impose it on the middle class. What we really need is some kind of intellectual revolution that avoids the demagoguery of OWS but keeps its motivation and organization.

Over 11 Years ago
Xhin
Sky's the limit

Take Xhin for instance. He was once a die hard Capitalist. But my anti-capitalis posts have affected him greatly - Now he's starting to get more and more shaky about Capitalism."

I'm not shaky on the idea of a free market, I'm just shaky on what role everyone should play in it. The basic free market idea is great for entrepreneurs (better than the current system) but fucks with the workers and consumers, who are instead dismissed with "oh but it's voluntary association!", which is obviously why people on the Left don't support it.

I was curious about that, because the free market rhetoric is always that those on the Left support government interference, but that's not always true. So why are they so adamant against the free market model?

So what I discovered is that the free market model DOES meet their needs, but the Right's conception of it is deeply flawed. Meanwhile, those on the Left *are* working with a free market model, but their rhetoric about government is completely different from what government actually is, so it too is flawed.

But if you combine the two ideas together (which I have been working on), suddenly you get an economy that simultaneously is accountable to the worker/consumer and rewards hard work and entrepreneurship. There's still a wealthy class, but it is maintained only by being accountable to people lower in the class scale; maintaining your wealth by investing it into new sources of wealth is almost impossible because of the competition with smaller and usually local organized groups that do the majority of the investing. The best way to create additional wealth is to create additional ideas.

Anyway my point is, really the best thing you can do on this forum is to listen to the people you're always debating every once in a while. Maybe there are major flaws in your own beliefs you don't even see because you're so used to thinking of them as "misguided sheep".

Over 11 Years ago
Xhin
Sky's the limit

Bump

Over 1 Year ago
chiarizio
 

Bummer. I thought for a second Temerit was back.

Over 1 Year ago
Agis

[scrubbed]

Over 1 Year ago
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