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Posted Over 1 Year ago by [scrubbed]

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There are 10 Replies


How do famines in communist societies differ from capitalist societies at the same time? Post-1900 communist societies aren't really comparable to pre-1900 societies, due to industry, agricultural improvements, worldwide trade, etc.

Over 1 Year ago
Xhin
Sky's the limit

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Over 1 Year ago
[scrubbed]

I don't think communism is really comparable to pre-agricultural societies or modern hunter-gatherer groups. Communism is based around the idea of collective ownership of the means of production, but pre-agricultural societies lack "production".

The workload is completely different -- hunter-gatherers spent around 4 hours per day "working". Work is meant for personal or maybe interpersonal benefit, rather than to achieve specialized "production". Skillsets are *very* generalized. Concepts like "wealth" or "jobs" lack meaning.

While it does definitely make sense to do whatever societal structure worked for millions of years (because we're probably genetically predisposed to it), bringing advanced technology into that would require a massive shift in thinking far outstripping Marxist theory, or may not even be possible.

There's also the issue of population size -- we evolved to live in bands of 20-30 with close familial ties (something still practiced by a lot of non-western countries). Being organized in large dense cities is probably not ideal, and the ensuing social isolation/detachment might be the cause of crime, which in turn requires some abstract thing called a "state" to enforce order. But industry doesn't really work without dense populations operating in concert so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I'm not saying we don't have things to learn from communist ideologies -- co-ops are widely successful by virtually every metric (lack of bankruptcies, worker retention, wages, longevity). Collective knowledge sharing underpins most of our recent scientific advancements. Open-source software basically runs the world at this point. Plenty of examples. My point isn't that communist perspectives aren't useful, only that they don't apply to broader historical patterns and some tenets of them may not even be compatible with modern society.

As I get older I recognize that modern society itself is what's flawed, not natural human reactions to it. Two centuries of industry isn't going to magically undo millions of years of evolution. Maybe a better solution is to reroute around the parts of modern society that aren't compatible with humans, rather than trying to mold humans to the society.

Over 1 Year ago
Xhin
Sky's the limit

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Over 1 Year ago
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Over 1 Year ago
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Over 1 Year ago
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Over 1 Year ago
[scrubbed]

You can't disprove the works of Robert Conquest documenting the carnage your murderous ideology has caused all around the world with a few paragraphs you parroted from Grover Furr.

Didn't you used to post here despising Robert Conquest and promoting Grover
Furr? Lol

Over 1 Year ago
pacman

No, pre-agricultural societies did not lack production, they lacked our idea of the modern means of production while still producing goods.


My point here was that they produced goods for personal or maybe tribal use, they weren't specialized producers that pumped out one type of item repeatedly or on request -- that really only happened with the advent of agriculture, and industry just specialized it even further. I think metalworking was probably the biggest turning point -- it's specialized knowledge, dangerous work, and yet very essential to bronze or iron age societies.

they also lacked money and hierarchical classes with power disparity and a state organization, among other things. In other words, they are far closer to communism than they are to capitalism.


I don't disagree, but this doesn't automatically mean hunter-gatherers practiced a form of communism or that communism has more of a historical basis. Inter-tribal relationships definitely had trading, which was about as free market as it gets, but that doesn't mean they were practicing anarcho-capitalism.

Even Marx and Engels nominate these pre-historical societies as being distinct from modern communism, but the resemblances are uncanny.


Well socially speaking, both are based around natural human tendencies in small groups. Whether any of those principles are relevant in large specialized societies isn't proven, or even tried really. "State communism" has definitely been tried, but it's an oxymoron.

Over 1 Year ago
Xhin
Sky's the limit

As much as the le ebin based ancaps who haven't yet fallen down the pipeline to fascism


I don't think there's a pipeline between ancap/minarchist thought and fascism. There's definitely one from conservatism and maybe even "liberal conservatism" (legalize gay marijuana) but your hardcore "government is evil" types aren't magically going to subscribe to authoritarianism.

capitalism is a decadent spook that required millennia of power disparity working for itself (and a devastating lack of reasonable morals) in order to convince people that it is the natural mode.


Capitalism is really just an extension of mercantilism, which itself is just merchant-based feudalism. I do think voluntary economies are pretty natural though -- the issue isn't the free market as a concept but the assholes who accumulate enormous amounts of wealth and political pull.

Fixing that would require changing some "inherent" concepts of ownership and the lack of moral accountability or stewardship. It's doable though -- if you actually consider company structure logically it doesn't make any sense for founders to "own" a structure of thousands or even millions of people.

Over 1 Year ago
Xhin
Sky's the limit

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