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U.S. COVID death toll surpasses 1918 flu fatalities

Posted 11 Months ago by G.-- .... -.--rey Echelon

https://www.axios.com/us-covid-death-toll-1918-flu-85b8b826-716c-4928-b28f-816db648395a.html
How are so many people still not taking this seriously anymore?

There are 37 Replies


No MAGAhead wants to admit that Trump’s policies and even his off-hand comments and lies have killed more Americans than any single war, including the Civil War and the Korean War and the VietNamese War.

They can believe simultaneously that COVID is no big deal and that Fauci was in cahoots with the Wuhan lab to profit from it.
In other words their reasoning is disordered. They’re technically psychotic according to the dictionary definition.

11 Months ago
chiarizio
 

How are so many people still not taking this seriously anymore?


In the beginning of COVID, there was a lot of chaos...
- A certain president didn't take it seriously (while in office, but admitted to being vaccinated after he left office)
- The media gave inconsistent reports on how threatening COVID is
- The media, government, and social media politicized the response to COVID
- AND the country was already extremely politically polarized

... And later, vaccines started causing blood clots and other drawbacks, so people didn't want the vaccine because fears of these side-effects were reported heavily.

... And conspiracy theorists latched onto the idea that the vaccine is a huge government ploy to nano/microchip the masses because it's so heavily politicized.

... And even now, different states have different vaccine and mask laws throughout this country, which is inconsistent and makes it unclear how bad COVID is.

All of this created the perfect storm for the following:
1) People don't trust reporting
2) People don't trust the vaccine
3) People think their very political affiliation hinges on a decision to vaccinate or not - which is very important to them in this super ultra polarized state

----

And America's a selfish country that has an individual > the masses lens, which differs from the bulk of Asian and European countries.

Honestly, it's a huge mess, but there was a lot to it.

I guarantee if you showed this article to some people, they'd say it's overhyped, bad reporting, untrue, etc, either in an effort to defend their ideologies, politics, or pride.

¤¤♅êîrÐ Øccu®@n瀤¤

11 Months ago
Weird Occurance

- A certain president didn't take it seriously (while in office, but admitted to being vaccinated after he left office)


Let's not forget that said president pushed the vaccines through development/EUA via his "Operation Warp Speed", and there was a lot of resultant politicization of that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_feSqSO3YUg
Weird Occurance hit the nail on the head here on some more of the reasons this has been a massive clusterfuck.

U.S. COVID death toll surpasses 1918 flu fatalities


The current US population is three times what it was in 1918.

11 Months ago
Xhin
Sky's the limit

The current US population is three times what it was in 1918.


I keep saying what we really needed is Black Death tier stuff, like people dying in the streets for the world to come together and respect this pandemic for what it is.

But yes, this is part of why the response isn't great.

It's not the same epic-proportions that we used to see during pandemics.

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11 Months ago
Weird Occurance

I keep saying what we really needed is Black Death tier stuff, like people dying in the streets for the world to come together and respect this pandemic for what it is.




But yes, this is part of why the response isn't great.




It's not the same epic-proportions that we used to see during pandemics.




=¤¤♅êîrÐ Øccu®@n瀤¤


Sure that would be enough? Wuhan had it so bad they sprayed the streets and sealed people inside.
So even with deaths bad enough, do you really think there wouldn't be people refusing? We're living in a society now, where the self matters more than ever before.

¤LðŗРУŋįd@¤

11 Months ago
Lord Denida

So even with deaths bad enough, do you really think there wouldn't be people refusing?


Of course there'd be people refusing.

But I hold that it would be less people.

¤¤♅êîrÐ Øccu®@n瀤¤

11 Months ago
Weird Occurance

But I hold that it would be less people.


I would agree.

¤LðŗРУŋįd@¤

11 Months ago
Lord Denida

The current US population is three times what it was in 1918.


Oh, ok. Then close to a million deaths is fine, then. Phew! Glad we to know we're over-reacting about the largest mass-death event in a century that is also still going.


I keep saying what we really needed is Black Death tier stuff, like people dying in the streets for the world to come together and respect this pandemic for what it is.


Honestly? I doubt that would be enough to bring the entire country together, never mind the world.




But in all this, you can't ignore the role of American capitalism itself, an ideology that fundamentally declares people "valuable" depending on their ability to produce. You can't downplay that the cavalier attitude taken toward this pandemic is intrinsically connected to our nation's attitude towards the elderly and the disabled. These two groups are far and away the most devastated by the worst of the virus, and we as a nation collectively decided not to care because they're "old" or "frail" and therefore, inferior or unworthy of consideration. Why? Because they can't or don't work as much as other demographics.

Like, the GOP was literally saying that you *should* be willing to sacrifice your grandmother or actual mother for the sake of "keeping the economy going" (and economy that increasingly works for only a tiny percentage of people). They *literally* told us it was better to let our parents and grandparents and friends and loved ones with disabilities perish so that we could still "enjoy our lives" and make enough money to...I dunno...barely afford rent, I guess?

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

Oh, ok. Then close to a million deaths is fine, then. Phew! Glad we to know we're over-reacting about the largest mass-death event in a century that is also still going.


I don't think this was the point. lol I think the point was more that it's not being taken seriously because some comparison like this doesn't hold water for people when you're looking at sheer numbers of population vs infected counts as they are today.

But it's still *really* bad and *should* be taken more seriously.

Honestly? I doubt that would be enough to bring the entire country together, never mind the world.


Would've been a lot closer to uniting than we are with the current situation. IMO, it would've caused more hysteria and a more serious response to this plague.

But in all this, you can't ignore the role of American capitalism itself, an ideology that fundamentally declares people "valuable" depending on their ability to produce. You can't downplay that the cavalier attitude taken toward this pandemic is intrinsically connected to our nation's attitude towards the elderly and the disabled.


This is so ingrained and interesting.
Back in the 1920's, the disabled and insane in the North Eastern states were sent away to an island off the coast of NY where we could basically forget about them in an asylum and not have to worry about them during this country's era of opulence preceding the Great Depression.

Now, interestingly enough, this society has a real strange view of the elderly.
It's like mothers and grandparents get phone calls and visits regularly - until they're too old and society drops them off in nursing homes to forget about them, which is also extremely disheartening.

Like, the GOP was literally saying that you *should* be willing to sacrifice your grandmother or actual mother for the sake of "keeping the economy going"


This comment would not have flown in any country that's got a more social-oriented or family-oriented values. Heck, some countries in South / Central America and Asia have family and ancestral worship deeply embedded in their cultures.

Is it really all *just* about the economy here or is there something else making this society more individual-prone than socially oriented?

I often wonder if American history is the culprit for these sorts of issues. Aside from Native Americans, America was founded by colonists and never had rich spiritual, religious, and philosophical developments that older nations had far back in their history, which I'd argue led to their rich cultures and social practices.

I think it goes beyond capitalism and more into social development.

But it's still a problem when you consider our response to disasters like COVID, for sure.

¤¤♅êîrÐ Øccu®@n瀤¤

11 Months ago
Weird Occurance

Is it really all *just* about the economy here or is there something else making this society more individual-prone than socially oriented?


Probably not exclusively, but it's pretty clearly the biggest factor. Like, if we were losing close to a million people in a year and a half that were young people who we were relying on to take service industry jobs or manufacturing jobs or something, I think people absolutely would have taken the pandemic a li'l more seriously. But because it was primarily killing the elderly - people who are either already out of the work force or are nearing the end of their time in the work force - it was easier to act like doing anything was an inconvenience.

The individualism is definitely a big part of it, too. The lack of balance for many in this country definitely contributes, but we did see so many people dismiss the pandemic as "just affecting the elderly and disabled." Can't make that argument if it's predominantly killing the biggest demographic of the work force though. Losing half a million workers becomes a little harder to ignore than losing half a million senior citizens.

But I also don't think you can really separate the individualism from the capitalistic obsession. Capitalism itself creates a reason to think only individualistically. We also haven't always been this obsessed with "individualism" as a nation, but the more deeply capitalistic we became, the more you see deeper obsessions with individualism. I don't think you take a purely individualistic approach to society if you believe in the solidarity required of other economic systems that aren't reliant on taking resources from other people to benefit yourself.


America was founded by colonists and never had rich spiritual, religious, and philosophical developments that older nations had far back in their history


Colonists themselves who were eager to practice their deeply religious lifestyles free from persecution.

But I do think there is something to be said about the country having a foundation as ultimately many different little countries rather than one larger nation. Even during the Revolutionary War, there wasn't necessarily a strong sense of "American" identity. (When you see people like Thomas Jefferson writing about his country, he's talking about Virginia, specifically.) That origin, I think, does still have a strongly negative impact on the nation. (It's how you get Republicans basically being like, "We should just let California burn because they didn't vote for us" or "Let New York deal with COVID on their own" or whatever. Because there isn't really a strong "American" identity today either. Even the pretend American nationalism of 9/11 ignores how much many Republicans despise New Yorkers, urbanites, or anyone who doesn't want to rush to war.)

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

But because it was primarily killing the elderly - people who are either already out of the work force or are nearing the end of their time in the work force - it was easier to act like doing anything was an inconvenience.


I agree with this that it would've shaken the country more if it had been the workforce impacted - but you can say that about any other country around the globe. The economy, regardless of what type, directly correlates to a country's power and rank.

This isn't purely a capitalist thing.

I think individualism really trumps the capitalism issue. See my comments regarding social media, the politicization of COVID, and how polarized this nation is.

When you have a nation that's got a natural inclination towards selfishness....
And we're all tethered to our phones, and live life through social media's chaos and literally can doomscroll news headlines for hours from the device we're always holding...
And are convinced COVID responses must be political...

Of COURSE society's not taking it seriously. Human connection be darned, you're not a true Republican if you get vaccinated! (So the masses say..)

One's social standing within your political sphere of friends *depends* on his / her vaccination status. Which is disgusting.

It should never ever ever have turned into a political issue. And there's the media and the president and America's religious freedom laws that can be used to justify everything to thank for that.

I'm kind of rambling but it's like, this whole thing is just chaos and my response is largely going to be a microcosm of that (sorry!), but I do find it frustrating that people don't weigh the good of the masses over personal preferences and ideologies.

Colonists themselves who were eager to practice their deeply religious lifestyles free from persecution.

But I do think there is something to be said about the country having a foundation as ultimately many different little countries rather than one larger nation. Even during the Revolutionary War, there wasn't necessarily a strong sense of "American" identity


Bingo. There was no religious, cultural identity to defend.
And America wasn't around during the conquering phase where nations borders were *very* in flux and countries were interested in conquering territories by force and rewriting the maps. (Think empires) - I feel like with America having a stable identity to unite its people, this nation would be very different. But, like you say, it's like a bunch of little countries, all with their own laws, restrictions, etc. It's hardly functional at best, and is really put to the test with something like COVID.

(It's how you get Republicans basically being like, "We should just let California burn because they didn't vote for us" or "Let New York deal with COVID on their own" or whatever.


many Republicans despise New Yorkers, urbanites, or anyone who doesn't want to rush to war.)


Every politician is going to do or say whatever it takes to get elected.
If we abolished the electoral college, the campaign trail would be NYC and California.
It's false promises all around, two sides of the same coin. They're all unreliable at best and that's really all that matters.
Cynicism is warranted, even advised, when discussing politics.

And sure, you can throw Republicans under the bus for their response to COVID, but the Democrats really played into it, perpetuating the idea that masks and vaccines are an anti-Trump statement. Which, well, you've lost half the country when you play into this narrative. (Explains the low vaccination rate, no?)

Meanwhile, Trump got vaccinated and admitted it only after he left office. Because he was called out on it.

It's all a game and all politicians are guilty for it.

¤¤♅êîrÐ Øccu®@n瀤¤

11 Months ago
Weird Occurance

I think individualism really trumps the capitalism issue. See my comments regarding social media, the politicization of COVID, and how polarized this nation is.



I think you are right, I only want to add that it is a worldwide phenomenon, not just American. Look at Brazil...

And politics should NEVER have anything to with a PANDEMIC, but that is reality...

¤LðŗРУŋįd@¤

11 Months ago
Lord Denida

but you can say that about any other country around the globe.


Sure, but were other nations saying that we should just ignore the virus and treating it like it's no different from the flu because it primarily kills the elderly and "the weak"? The reason that was a common refrain in the US is largely because we assign financial value to life, itself a fact largely due to our glorification of capitalism, wherein one's value is in accordance to their ability to produce.

The US's long-running effort to glorify and sanctify the capitalist economic model fundamentally connects to both the devalue of life of various groups of people as well as the intrinsic sense of selfishness.

And it's also the reason why we saw so many people wanting to put profits over lives. The whole "be willing to kill your mom or grandma so business can boom" argument is fundamentally prioritizing profits over human lives.

When you have a nation that's got a natural inclination towards selfishness....


A selfishness that is largely bred from capitalistic leaning. You can't separate the glorification of capitalism in this country from this supposedly innate inclination towards selfishness.


If we abolished the electoral college, the campaign trail would be NYC and California.


A piece of rhetoric that is objectively not true and not at all supported by fact or math.

And sure, you can throw Republicans under the bus for their response to COVID, but the Democrats really played into it, perpetuating the idea that masks and vaccines are an anti-Trump statement


I'm not saying this didn't happen, but I didn't really see this anywhere, this idea that wearing a mask is somehow a political "fuck you" to Donald Trump. You can't compare it to the reverse. Both sides are not "equally bad" here.


I think you are right, I only want to add that it is a worldwide phenomenon, not just American. Look at Brazil...


Yes, Brazil, a country that famously has nothing do with capitalism...

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

Like, yes, you can argue that capitalism is not the *sole* factor here, but it's hard to untangle the American obsession and sanctification of that economic system from the way the US has responded.

Though I will also note that there's always a disconnect between the majority and the obnoxiously vocal minority. (Even the majority of Republican voters seem to support some sort of vaccine or mask mandate in many indoor public settings. But you wouldn't know that because a small enough group of them are loud enough to dominate everything.)

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

A selfishness that is largely bred from capitalistic leaning. You can't separate the glorification of capitalism in this country from this supposedly innate inclination towards selfishness.


Like, yes, you can argue that capitalism is not the *sole* factor here, but it's hard to untangle the American obsession and sanctification of that economic system from the way the US has responded.


And it's also the reason why we saw so many people wanting to put profits over lives. The whole "be willing to kill your mom or grandma so business can boom" argument is fundamentally prioritizing profits over human lives.


A selfishness that is largely bred from capitalistic leaning. You can't separate the glorification of capitalism in this country from this supposedly innate inclination towards selfishness.


I think this is a chicken and the egg sort of thing, is what I'm saying. Sure, capitalism may contribute, but I think the individualistic mindset is the biggest contributor and is the *cause* behind people truly embracing capitalism AND assign that financial value to a human life. It takes a huge degree of selfish lack of compassion to reach that point where the normal members of society care so little that they don't take precautions, even at the risk of getting a family member sick with a deadly pandemic.

Now, furthermore, if your claim is that capitalism bred this selfishness, as you've stated, you should be able to prove that every socialist / communist in America has been vaccinated and worn a mask through this pandemic. Otherwise, it's something else. Like a lack of social ethics that's plaguing society through the use of other desensitization - media, social media, so on and so forth. And, like Denida pointed out, Brazil, which is NOT a capitalistic country also embraces this lack of compassion that we're seeing in the US, so I don't think it's capitalism. I think it's selfishness, which, in the US, led to embracing capitalism.

A piece of rhetoric that is objectively not true and not at all supported by fact or math.


In which case it'd only be the most populated cities / states in the US. Farewell, Alaska, we can at least agree on lol

You can't compare it to the reverse. Both sides are not "equally bad" here.


In the strictest sense, yes, wearing a mask *is* good.
Getting vaccinated *is* good.
Doing things for a dumb reason is still doing things for a dumb reason. I hold that intent matters ethically. Doing something good JUST to make a political statement doesn't show compassion for fellow human beings.

Though I will also note that there's always a disconnect between the majority and the obnoxiously vocal minority.


Agree 100%. See this all the time with any group really. I see a fixation on your part to continually demonize Republicans, but it's honestly the case with any group or faction in existence. lol

¤¤♅êîrÐ Øccu®@n瀤¤

11 Months ago
Weird Occurance

Yes, Brazil, a country that famously has nothing do with capitalism...


That is my point exactly, it doesn't and if it does anywhere it is only a small part.
If it did then the rest of the world wouldn't have a problem. Sorry, but that's a do-over.

¤LðŗРУŋįd@¤

11 Months ago
Lord Denida

wait a sec. denida, do you think brazil isn’t capitalist?

11 Months ago
poptart!
 

Now, furthermore, if your claim is that capitalism bred this selfishness, as you've stated, you should be able to prove that every socialist / communist in America has been vaccinated and worn a mask through this pandemic.


Well, given that capitalism is a global economic system and there aren't many meaningfully socialistic or actually communistic countries, we can really only compare the American style capitalistic economic system to the more European model, which blends some socialistic principles into it. Have there been many European nations that have seen the kind of anti-mask, anti-vaccine tendencies, or the desire to simply ignore the pandemic the way the US has? Most of those nations with vaguely similar means have handled the pandemic discernibly better. No one has handled it perfectly or necessarily super well, but nations that have some sense of "the greater good" mixed into their structural make-up appear to have handled it a lot better, and are not still dealing with many of the same exact issues we had a year ago.


I think this is a chicken and the egg sort of thing


I don't see what it matters which "came first." You simply can't untangle capitalism from the current problem. Quite literally, it was capitalists telling us all to get back to work and not care about it explicitly because they care about the bottom line. It more than just contributes; it is the biggest driving force behind caring more about money than about people.

I think it's selfishness, which, in the US, led to embracing capitalism.


The nation was founded on capitalistic principles, though. How do you separate the capitalism from the selfishness? They fundamentally connect to each other.

Doing things for a dumb reason is still doing things for a dumb reason. I hold that intent matters ethically. Doing something good JUST to make a political statement doesn't show compassion for fellow human beings.


Sure, but if it actively helps instead of harms others, then they're innately not the same thing. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons might not be great, but you can't treat it like it's the same thing as doing the wrong thing for whatever reason. Wearing a mask to "stick it to Trump" is innately better than not wearing a mask to "stick it to the libs" because one actively helps reduce harm and the other actively increases risk of harm. Intent might matter to some small degree on a philosophical level, but get outta here if you're going to look at them as being equally ridiculous.


In which case it'd only be the most populated cities / states in the US. Farewell, Alaska, we can at least agree on lol


Again, this is not objectively true. There is no good reason for the electoral college that is grounded in fact (or math). Your argument here is predicated on an inaccurate assumption of just how populated those cities you're referring to actually are, and conveniently ignoring that the electoral college itself *already* causes candidates to focus primarily on just a handful of states. So even if we buy your argument, what's functionally different about candidates spending more time and resources on a handful of cities where most of the people actually live versus spending more time and resources on a handful of states that swing the EC every election? And how do you account for the fact that in gubernatorial races - which are decided by popular vote - routinely see candidates make sure they spend time and money campaigning in rural and suburban areas of the state?

And more to the point, why shouldn't every American have equal voting power for the one single office that represents all Americans? We'd still have the House and the Senate, which itself already gives greater power to less populated states (which is why we routinely see representatives of a small minority of Americans hold up legislation that the discernible majority support). Why shouldn't every Californian, New Yorker, Texan, Floridian, Nebraskan, and Alaskan have the same exact voting power for the one office that represents every American rather than "the states"?


I see a fixation on your part to continually demonize Republicans, but it's honestly the case with any group or faction in existence


Hey man, I didn't make the Republicans do the things they did or say the things they did. Point out a single member of the Republican party that came out and said, "Hey, I know it's not ideal, but please wear a mask out in public, especially for indoor areas. It's important that we take care of each other."


And, like Denida pointed out, Brazil, which is NOT a capitalistic country also embraces this lack of compassion that we're seeing in the US, so I don't think it's capitalism.


I guess since it didn't register, but my comment about Brazil famously being a nation that has no issues pertaining to capitalism was sarcasm. Brazil has had a *lot* of issues in recent years and decades as they've become increasingly focused on modern capitalistic economic systems and endeavors. It's 100% a capitalist country, which is why I was trying to sarcastically point out that Brazil isn't a great example if you're trying to explain how capitalism didn't fundamentally make this pandemic worse than it needed to be.

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

I'm happy to tear apart whatever arguments you have in supposed defense of the electoral college in a different thread if you want to keep this more focused, by the way. That's a topic I have spent a considerable amount of time studying and reading about, so I'm always eager to rip the notion to shreds, but I don't have to do it in this thread if that's helpful.

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

Final note on the "right thing for the wrong reason," thing, I mean, I'm gonna be real honest: I don't care *that* much. I've written about how it kiiinda sucked that brief period where everyone donated to shark protection groups when they found out Trump hates sharks. That's obviously the right thing for the wrong reason. But at the end of the day, I kinda don't reeeeally care so long as they're still doing "the right thing." They donated for dumb reasons, but their donations will do a lot of good for those groups protecting sharks. That's what I care about.

In the same way that like, if someone supported Medicare For All just to spite their parents who hate the idea or something, I kinda don't care if they wind up voting for a candidate that wants to pass it. Yeah, I'd ideally like people to be more principled, but I'm also not going to complain when things get better for people (or environmental causes) that need the help. At any rate, you *definitely* can't argue that it's no different than people who will like, go out and hunt sharks just to show support for Trump or who will vote against Medicare For All just to spite "the libs" or whatever. You can say philosophically, both might be silly or dumb, but in practice, they are not even close to being equally bad. And it's absurd to argue otherwise.

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

It amazes me we still have so much disinformation floating around when google is just a 3 sec search away

... And later, vaccines started causing blood clots and other drawbacks, so people didn't want the vaccine because fears of these side-effects were reported heavily.


This was only the Johnson&Johnson formula AND it was very rare, however ONLY the Johnson&Johnson formula was pulled to re-evaluation and testing to make sure that it wouldn't become more widespread. It has since been cleared and put back in public use with no negative side-effects.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/JJUpdate.html#:~:text=Reports%20after%20the%20use%20of,younger%20than%2050%20years%20old.
... And even now, different states have different vaccine and mask laws throughout this country, which is inconsistent and makes it unclear how bad COVID is.


All states need to get the same maximum protection requirements. Part of the problem of what COVID reporting is inconsistent is that people may not die directly from covid, but from a chronic condition that was exacerbated by covid so autopsies have to be done as well as labwork on tissues that takes time to do accurately.
https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-are-covid-19-deaths-counted-it-s-complicated
Let's not forget that said president pushed the vaccines through development/EUA via his "Operation Warp Speed", and there was a lot of resultant politicization of that:


That's not what Kamala Harris was saying, she was saying she would only trust what health experts say, not Trump. Also, despite Trump putting pressure on vaccine makers to rush the vaccine to cover up his carelessness of when the pandemic started, the vaccine was not "rushed" through development:
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-donald-trump-mark-meadows-coronavirus-pandemic-elections-d93bd92727e89e451a2be73ec3de8ede
The current US population is three times what it was in 1918.


So, not to get nitpicky, but why are we focusing only on US population in 1918? Why does it matter how much the population has grown in 100 years if the new pandemic is still killing more people than any other pandemic in US history? The 1918 Pandemic killed an estimated 675,000 Americans and currently an estimated 680,000 Americans have died from COVID. it doesn't matter if the population is higher today, that's still more people dying. Infact, in today's age with how long vaccines have been a thing and their efficacy when used to treat diseases should result in people getting the vaccine as soon as it's available resulting in much less people dying.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/20/covid-is-americas-deadliest-pandemic-as-us-fatalities-near-1918-flu-estimates.html
I keep saying what we really needed is Black Death tier stuff, like people dying in the streets for the world to come together and respect this pandemic for what it is.


Unfortunately with the way so many people continue to believe conspiracy theorists and the other 12 Alex Jones level idiots instead of the freakin CDC, FDA and WHO that even if people were literally dying in the streets with the skin rotting off of their bones and coughing up blood people wouldn't want to get the vaccine because they would think it would be worse somehow. And Trump has made it infinitely worse with how he has handled things from the beginning and then making everything that doesn't work in his favor a conspiracy.
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996570855/disinformation-dozen-test-facebooks-twitters-ability-to-curb-vaccine-hoaxes

Sure that would be enough? Wuhan had it so bad they sprayed the streets and sealed people inside......So even with deaths bad enough, do you really think there wouldn't be people refusing? We're living in a society now, where the self matters more than ever before.


I want to say that despite me shitting on Denida for a while, I actually 100% agree with him now. We literally saw China welding doors shut to buildings that had people with COVID in them. We had Chinese Doctors making videos warning the world about how contagious and deadly the virus is to later die from COVID and he was only 34. The country has been gaslighted so long about what information is true and what is false that they no longer trust the right sources and refuse to do any research on their own to verify what they hear.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51403795
But I hold that it would be less people.


It would be less people because those that would be refusing would be dying off so fast you wouldn't be able to count them lol

It's not the same epic-proportions that we used to see during pandemics.


That's because of the vaccines that have been developed and implemented around the world.

I often wonder if American history is the culprit for these sorts of issues. Aside from Native Americans, America was founded by colonists and never had rich spiritual, religious, and philosophical developments that older nations had far back in their history, which I'd argue led to their rich cultures and social practices.


It isn't that colonists didn't have rich spiritual, religious, and philosophical developments that made America's history super shady. Infact most of the immigrants and colonists were coming to America so they could practice their preferred religion without persecution. It's why its the first Amendment in the constitution of the U.S.
https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-1/#:~:text=Constitution%20of%20the%20United%20States,-First%20Amendment&text=Congress%20shall%20make%20no%20law,for%20a%20redress%20of%20grievances.https://americanhistory.si.edu/citizenship/learn/rights/58/learn#:~:text=Colonists%20came%20to%20America%20because,and%20self%2Dgovernment%20are%20important.&text=Colonists%20first%20came%20to%20America%20for%20more%20freedom.
One of the reasons that the Native American population couldn't hold back the advances of eastern colonists is because when those colonists showed up they brought diseases that the Native Americans had no immunities against and it spread like wildfire decimating their populations. When this was found out by the colonists they gave the Native tribes blankets from diseased patients to help spread the diseases to the point that so many natives died that it cooled the planet and lead to a "little Ice Age" from the 16th century to the mid 19 century.
https://www.history.com/news/colonists-native-americans-smallpox-blanketshttps://www.businessinsider.com/climate-changed-after-europeans-killed-indigenous-americans-2019-2
And politics should NEVER have anything to with a PANDEMIC, but that is reality...


Again, I 100% agree with Denida. Politics should have nothing to do with medical information and how vaccines get trusted. Unfortunately you have Glory seeking people like Trump who use politics to interfere with medical stuff for their own personal gain. Which results in so much disinformation being spread in an effort to create division against opponents to be later used in political situations with citizens paying the ultimate price.

It's so bad that Seth McFarlane had to make a Family Guy COVID Vaccine PSA:



11 Months ago
Q2
 

Insightful response, Q!

I don’t have time to respond to everything you and Jet have said, but there’s one point I’d like to call out.

This was only the Johnson&Johnson formula AND it was very rare, however ONLY the Johnson&Johnson formula was pulled to re-evaluation and testing to make sure that it wouldnt become more widespread. It has since been cleared and put back in public use with no negative side-effects.


It was not just Johnson&Johnson. There was another one before it that countries literally banned.

Zeneca or something?

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11 Months ago
Weird Occurance

and currently an estimated 680,000 Americans have died from COVID. it


And to be clear, that's almost certainly conservative estimates.


One of the reasons that the Native American population couldn't hold back the advances of eastern colonists is because when those colonists showed up they brought diseases that the Native Americans had no immunities against and it spread like wildfire decimating their populations.


Which was also a major factor for why several tribes wound up conducting a lot of raids on smaller settlements. Often they conducted such brutal raids because they were hoping to take women and children and integrate them into their tribes to help bolster their numbers. Not universally, of course, but that was a driving factor for many native raids on colonists. (Until eventually the raids themselves became a means of survival as we continued to push them off their land and renege on our own agreements with them.)

It was not just Johnson&Johnson. There was another one before it that countries literally banned.


AstraZeneca. And it's not banned. Like J&J, there were certain medical conditions that were very rare in which AstraZeneca could - on an even more rare occasion - cause blood clots. It continues to be in use, but Europe largely did not renew contracts with the company because of contract issues, not vaccine safety issues.

But just for the record: a vaccine having a potential risk in an incredibly rare set of circumstances is not really itself grounds for treating the vaccine itself as "unsafe." It's information to give to doctors and medical professionals so they can assess an individual's risk. There was some associated data to suggest that for AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines, 0.0008% of recipients appeared to develop Guillain-Barre syndrome, a rare autoimmune issue that is treatable and, frankly, occurs more from people just getting the flu than from getting the flu shot or COVID and getting the COVID shot.

As for the blood clots, we're talking about an incredibly, unbelievably rare number of occurrences. Like, literally 6 cases in over 6 million doses. (Some reporting, conversely, indicates that up to 20% of COVID patients in the ICU develop blood clots due to COVID.)

These vaccines were paused as part of the oversight procedures understandably, but overly conservative and cautious structure. This information about the incredibly rare chance of blood clots was also more beneficial for the doctors treating such patients, since treatment would vary in these circumstances. With that knowledge and proper treatment, the blood clots were easily handled. The problem was that medical professionals hadn't known about that and could potentially apply incorrect treatment.

These do not suddenly mean that the vaccines are or were ever truly "unsafe." And they certainly don't suggest a discernible risk to the overwhelming majority of the population. (People experience GBS from getting the flu shot, for example, but it's treatable, incredibly rare, and the benefits far outweigh the risk.)

Over-reporting these studies fundamentally inflates the risk and potential danger of vaccines, which does more to breed distrust to vaccines in which *substantially* more evidence supports getting them than not.

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

And Trump has made it infinitely worse with how he has handled things from the beginning and then making everything that doesn't work in his favor a conspiracy.


Well, there was also the issue of Trump spending substantially more time trying to get everyone to blame China rather than actually try to manage the crisis. And it's like, ok, we're not blaming YOU for the virus getting here. But you are the president and you are choosing how we respond to the virus, telling people not to take safety precautions and even going so far as to encourage people to consume literal poison to combat it. Sorry, but *that* part wasn't China's fault.

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

Zeneca or something?



Astra Zeneca, but I don't think USA has it approved.

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11 Months ago
Lord Denida

It was not just Johnson&Johnson. There was another one before it that countries literally banned.......Zeneca or something?


Close, I believe you are referring to AstraZeneca which has been pulled from Italy, France, Germany, Ireland, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Iceland and Bulgaria. Just to be aware, AstraZeneca has not been approved for use in the US at any point.
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-03-15/italy-france-germany-join-countries-suspending-astrazeneca-coronavirus-vaccine
The problem with AstraZeneca vaccine related deaths is that they were from VITT or Vaccine-induced Thrombotic Thrombocytopenia. VITT is still very rare even with that vaccine, but even then it has been investigated:


The U.K.’s Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation has consistently said that the benefits of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine continue to outweigh the risks for the vast majority of people.

Multiple health authorities, including the WHO, the European Medicines Agency and the International Society on Thrombosis and Hemostasis have agreed that the benefits of administering the vaccine outweigh the risks.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/blood-clots-linked-to-astrazeneca-shot-have-22percent-mortality-rate-study.html


11 Months ago
Q2
 

AstraZeneca. And it's not banned. Like J&J, there were certain medical conditions that were very rare in which AstraZeneca could - on an even more rare occasion - cause blood clots. It continues to be in use, but Europe largely did not renew contracts with the company because of contract issues, not vaccine safety issues.



Sorry to say, but you cannot list Europe as one entity. Denmark, where I am from ONLY allows Phizer and Moderna, all the rest are banned from use. Norway for example allows Moderna, but the Norwegians do not want to use this. And these are just TWO countries. These two are neighboring countries, both in the Nordic Council with very different tactics.

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11 Months ago
Lord Denida

AstraZeneca is seeking full approval in the US later this year, skipping the option to be approved for emergency use. It is approved by the WHO and in Europe for emergency use, however. There have been some reports of blood clots from AstraZeneca in a tiny number of recipients with low platelet levels.

Worth keeping in mind that "approval" does not itself say anything about the safety or danger of a particular thing.

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

AstraZeneca is seeking full approval in the US later this year, skipping the option to be approved for emergency use. It is approved by the WHO and in Europe for emergency use, however. There have been some reports of blood clots from AstraZeneca in a tiny number of recipients with low platelet levels.



I couldn't say, I can only say by my country's standard. Denmark's view is they removed it as the first country in the world for a reason.

J&J, or Janssen as it was called was removed due to reports before the first dose was administered.

So emergency was never here at least...

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11 Months ago
Lord Denida

I was speaking more broadly, apologies. My understanding, however, is that Denmark does allow for AstraZeneca and J&J, but that those are not part of their national effort to maximize vaccinations. But the EMA had still deemed both to be safe, with the risks incredibly rare. Denmark and a couple others opted to operate out of an abundance of caution, which is understandable, but little in the data made the vaccines actually appear to produce a problematically high level of risk.

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

The WHO and EMA both approved J&J and AstraZeneca for emergency use on a broad level. Obviously individual nations were free to do what they wanted with that approval, but two major international public health organizations approved both vaccines for emergency use.

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

I was speaking more broadly, apologies. My understanding, however, is that Denmark does allow for AstraZeneca and J&J, but that those are not part of their national effort to maximize vaccinations. But the EMA had still deemed both to be safe, with the risks incredibly rare. Denmark and a couple others opted to operate out of an abundance of caution, which is understandable, but little in the data made the vaccines actually appear to produce a problematically high level of risk.


It's ok, but no Zeneca is ceased. They only allowed people who wanted to take the risk to take it to sign up for the doses already purchased back then. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56744474
All of the doses we purchased have been donated to Africa. 6 mill doses so far...

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11 Months ago
Lord Denida

Right, which means that it's not banned anymore; it's just not part of their nationalized effort to get people vaccinated.

But I love the fact that it's not safe enough for European residents. So...let's send them to Africa! (Which is accidentally good because those vaccines are safe and effective. But gotta love the racism behind it.)

11 Months ago
Jet Presto

Right, which means that it's not banned anymore; it's just not part of their nationalized effort to get people vaccinated.




But I love the fact that it's not safe enough for European residents. So...let's send them to Africa! (Which is accidentally good because those vaccines are safe and effective. But gotta love the racism behind it.)


This is Denmark's view, not the EU. In Denmark, ALL vaccines but two are banned!
Please listen to what I said. Donating to WHOMEVER that wants it instead of letting them lay in storage.

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11 Months ago
Lord Denida

Apologies for my rushed comment earlier about AstraZeneca. I was dropping a comment before rushing to a meeting so I didn’t clarify my intention lol

I was merely saying it was banned due to health concerns…
But agree they were uncommon side-effects and agree vaccinating is better than the risks associated with not.

I wasn’t saying vaccines are so dangerous that they shouldn’t be taken lol that’d be foolish.

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11 Months ago
Weird Occurance

I wasn’t saying vaccines are so dangerous that they shouldn’t be taken lol that’d be foolish.


Sorry I was thinking you were. And it’s good you aren’t foolish to believe that but unfortunately there are many who are that eel that it’s an attack against their freedoms and use things like this to substantiate thier view.

11 Months ago
Q2
 

Sorry I was thinking you were. And it’s good you aren’t foolish to believe that but unfortunately there are many who are that eel that it’s an attack against their freedoms and use things like this to substantiate thier view.


All good. I have too many high-risk family members to think this way, my mom being one of them. She's been immune-suppressed since a surgery back in December, so when she got vaccinated, she was told she might as well not have been because it doesn't actually bolster anything for her. I cancelled a trip to see her for her birthday so I could go visit after I was vaccinated so the threat would be mitigated.

I wish more people thought about those who *cannot* get vaccinated, due to a medical condition and those who vaccines do not help at all, due to medical conditions.

The decision to not vaccinate is extremely selfish, as it puts others, especially those who'd love to be vaccinated but can't be, at a much greater risk.

It really upsets me.

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11 Months ago
Weird Occurance

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